…that is going on in my head.
I am really torn here. I was one of the outspoken members who truly believes GM phuked up big time by not offering the 4.3L in the new twins. Although I love Diesels (I am a Kenworth truck salesman) I also see the common emissions system problems related to modern diesels. I’m also aware that the delete kits have mostly gone the way of the Dodo bird. So because of these reasons I just wanted a simple, cam in block, overhead 2 valve engine that is a bit oversized for the application. The 4.3L is the perfect engine.
But ultimately I get employee pricing on GM vehicles, the truck is a perfect fit for my lifestyle and needs at it’s updated size and now that I can purchase a CC LB. The features are there, the 6 speed transmission, and all the fuel saving technologies which are quite important to me. And finally my ’09 Canyon has been perfectly reliable for 126K miles now but is getting worn out. I don’t want too screw with anything besides general maintenance. And my current Canyon doesn’t have the configuration that I need anyways. And because I mountain bike and motocross and carry sweaty buddies the cloth interior smells like a dirty jock strap. I’ll never own another vehicle without a leather interior for this reason alone. But waiting until Model Year 2016 to get hard diesel numbers (option price, power ratings, mpg rating, real world reports) is a loooong wait for me. Frankly I’ve got $40K sitting in a special account just for this purchase and I’m ready, right now! Oh, and the new Canyon is a fantastic looking truck imo with ideal proportions.
Now I recognize that we don’t have info on any of these engine configurations but since I pay a lot of attention to modern vehicles, I think I can make some very close estimates. I don’t work off EPA estimates because their test gasoline and driving styles are generally unrealistic for me.
First on mpg in a 4x4 CC LB with the 3.6L, no lift and based on the fact that I currently average 20mpg in my’09 I5, CC,4x2 on Superunleaded; I believe it’s realistic to expect a new 4x4 version which is a notably larger truck w/ the new technology to get 20mpg combined w/ the 3.6L. I believe the engine is rated for about 27mpg Highway in the automatic Camaro.
In the same configuration I expect the 2.8D to be rated about 22mpg City & 29mpg highway. Diesels in general tend to easily reach and even exceed EPA estimates. Gassers don’t meet EPA expectations generally in large part because the EPA test fuel is 92 Octane no ethanol fuel. I expect the 2.8D to get 25mpg combined in my application. I believe the new Dodge 4x4 w/ the 3.0 Diesel (much larger heavier truck but an 8 speed transmission) is rated for about 26mpg Highway so I expect the 2.8D in the smaller 4x4 GM to do about 29mpg Highway rating.
Now in my wife’s Cruze Diesel when I speced an identical gasser Cruze it cost exactly $1800 less than our Diesel version of the same, MSRP vs. MSRP. Dodge is charging something like a $4500 premium for their new 3.0 diesel over their 3.6L base gasser engine (Pentastar) which seems a bit excessive to me. Given this info it is my opinion that GM will try to get about $3300 for their optional Diesel engine. This of course is the big unknown.
I will do 200K miles in this vehicle over the next 8 years so I really want to make the best decision. Not just from a financial perspective but also considering uptime (emissions systems can cost a bundle to repair on an out of warranty diesel) performance, towing, performance at altitude (2 annual ski trips), time to fuel refills, etc…
I currently pay $3.30 per gallon of super unleaded at Costco and I only fill up elsewhere once in a great while. Costco doesn’t sell diesel however and that good old #2 cost $3.55 right down the street. I grab DEF fluid at work for about $3/ gallon. Modern diesel engines under average operation burn about 2.5% DEF to diesel.
So the basic math is at current fuel prices (I know, unlikely to remain the same over an 8 year period) I would spend $33K on gasoline over the vehicle’s lifetime with the 3.6L. (3.30/ 20 x 200000) Pretty low operating costs.
With the 2.8D I’d spend $28.4K on diesel fuel and then another $600 on DEF fluid (ignoring that the first 2 years maintenance includes DEF).
Now if the Diesel at 200K miles had NO additional resale value over a gasser engine, then I saved $4K on fuel costs, just offsetting the cost of the engine itself. So the cost of the engine is a wash basically. But fortunately that is not the real issue for me. More on that later.
Things that could dramatically change this equation obviously are: my engine upcharge numbers are off, my mileage estimates are off, or the cost of fuel rises significantly (or drops) over my period of ownership. Although diesels due indeed cost a bit more to maintain, since I maintain my own vehicles, and diesels don’t require emissions inspections here, I consider it a wash.
As far as power goes these are just estimates at this time but the 3.6L should do about 290hp/ 285tq tuned for torque (the Camaro version makes 324hp). Using the Cruze diesel’s engine output 148hp/ 258tq (not including the over-boost function) and recognizing that the 2.8D will have 40% larger engine displacement, I’ll assume an across the board 35% gain in power resulting in around 200hp/ 348tq. Some say it will be less but I sincerely doubt it. That will make it a stout little engine and just a programmer will bump that thing to 240+hp all day long (no warranty though!?). Power is a big deal to me and I would buy the most powerful engine available to me irregardless of cost and even over mpg for that matter.
Now both engines have their pros and cons which I will spell out below.
The 2.8D PROs as I see them are: superior passing power at low rpm which is where I like to drive, longer intervals between fueling fill ups, doesn’t lose power at altitude due to turbocharging (nice for my 2x/ year ski trips), and tremendous modification potential (favorite past time of mine), better at towing (I hope to get a boat but it’s not happening soon), and finally diesels are just cool to drive.
The 2.8D CONs as I see them are: a long time to get payback in FE (not a big concern for me), and the potential unreliability of the emissions equipment long term. Also the diesel equipped vehicle can often weigh more slightly effecting overall handling. And the big con for me personally, not available until MY 2016.
The 3.6L PROs are primarily: availability sooner rather than later, and more top end acceleration by far w/ another 100hp (stock anyways). Mods will be available being a Camaro engine (bolt-ons is all I would do to a gasser) but being naturally aspirated they will be limited in % increases.
3.6L Cons would primarily be, well it just doesn’t feel like a premium engine to me. It really doesn’t. I feel the torque is a little low for this application and I also don’t love the 4 valve heads and complexity (no DOD!) and the type of power they deliver for a 4x4 truck. I’m really not happy w/ the engine choice GM made on paper.
So after my long drawn out explanation, are any of you guys going through the same decision making process as I am? What are your conclusions? I’d love to hear them.
Thanks for reading the novel.
I am really torn here. I was one of the outspoken members who truly believes GM phuked up big time by not offering the 4.3L in the new twins. Although I love Diesels (I am a Kenworth truck salesman) I also see the common emissions system problems related to modern diesels. I’m also aware that the delete kits have mostly gone the way of the Dodo bird. So because of these reasons I just wanted a simple, cam in block, overhead 2 valve engine that is a bit oversized for the application. The 4.3L is the perfect engine.
But ultimately I get employee pricing on GM vehicles, the truck is a perfect fit for my lifestyle and needs at it’s updated size and now that I can purchase a CC LB. The features are there, the 6 speed transmission, and all the fuel saving technologies which are quite important to me. And finally my ’09 Canyon has been perfectly reliable for 126K miles now but is getting worn out. I don’t want too screw with anything besides general maintenance. And my current Canyon doesn’t have the configuration that I need anyways. And because I mountain bike and motocross and carry sweaty buddies the cloth interior smells like a dirty jock strap. I’ll never own another vehicle without a leather interior for this reason alone. But waiting until Model Year 2016 to get hard diesel numbers (option price, power ratings, mpg rating, real world reports) is a loooong wait for me. Frankly I’ve got $40K sitting in a special account just for this purchase and I’m ready, right now! Oh, and the new Canyon is a fantastic looking truck imo with ideal proportions.
Now I recognize that we don’t have info on any of these engine configurations but since I pay a lot of attention to modern vehicles, I think I can make some very close estimates. I don’t work off EPA estimates because their test gasoline and driving styles are generally unrealistic for me.
First on mpg in a 4x4 CC LB with the 3.6L, no lift and based on the fact that I currently average 20mpg in my’09 I5, CC,4x2 on Superunleaded; I believe it’s realistic to expect a new 4x4 version which is a notably larger truck w/ the new technology to get 20mpg combined w/ the 3.6L. I believe the engine is rated for about 27mpg Highway in the automatic Camaro.
In the same configuration I expect the 2.8D to be rated about 22mpg City & 29mpg highway. Diesels in general tend to easily reach and even exceed EPA estimates. Gassers don’t meet EPA expectations generally in large part because the EPA test fuel is 92 Octane no ethanol fuel. I expect the 2.8D to get 25mpg combined in my application. I believe the new Dodge 4x4 w/ the 3.0 Diesel (much larger heavier truck but an 8 speed transmission) is rated for about 26mpg Highway so I expect the 2.8D in the smaller 4x4 GM to do about 29mpg Highway rating.
Now in my wife’s Cruze Diesel when I speced an identical gasser Cruze it cost exactly $1800 less than our Diesel version of the same, MSRP vs. MSRP. Dodge is charging something like a $4500 premium for their new 3.0 diesel over their 3.6L base gasser engine (Pentastar) which seems a bit excessive to me. Given this info it is my opinion that GM will try to get about $3300 for their optional Diesel engine. This of course is the big unknown.
I will do 200K miles in this vehicle over the next 8 years so I really want to make the best decision. Not just from a financial perspective but also considering uptime (emissions systems can cost a bundle to repair on an out of warranty diesel) performance, towing, performance at altitude (2 annual ski trips), time to fuel refills, etc…
I currently pay $3.30 per gallon of super unleaded at Costco and I only fill up elsewhere once in a great while. Costco doesn’t sell diesel however and that good old #2 cost $3.55 right down the street. I grab DEF fluid at work for about $3/ gallon. Modern diesel engines under average operation burn about 2.5% DEF to diesel.
So the basic math is at current fuel prices (I know, unlikely to remain the same over an 8 year period) I would spend $33K on gasoline over the vehicle’s lifetime with the 3.6L. (3.30/ 20 x 200000) Pretty low operating costs.
With the 2.8D I’d spend $28.4K on diesel fuel and then another $600 on DEF fluid (ignoring that the first 2 years maintenance includes DEF).
Now if the Diesel at 200K miles had NO additional resale value over a gasser engine, then I saved $4K on fuel costs, just offsetting the cost of the engine itself. So the cost of the engine is a wash basically. But fortunately that is not the real issue for me. More on that later.
Things that could dramatically change this equation obviously are: my engine upcharge numbers are off, my mileage estimates are off, or the cost of fuel rises significantly (or drops) over my period of ownership. Although diesels due indeed cost a bit more to maintain, since I maintain my own vehicles, and diesels don’t require emissions inspections here, I consider it a wash.
As far as power goes these are just estimates at this time but the 3.6L should do about 290hp/ 285tq tuned for torque (the Camaro version makes 324hp). Using the Cruze diesel’s engine output 148hp/ 258tq (not including the over-boost function) and recognizing that the 2.8D will have 40% larger engine displacement, I’ll assume an across the board 35% gain in power resulting in around 200hp/ 348tq. Some say it will be less but I sincerely doubt it. That will make it a stout little engine and just a programmer will bump that thing to 240+hp all day long (no warranty though!?). Power is a big deal to me and I would buy the most powerful engine available to me irregardless of cost and even over mpg for that matter.
Now both engines have their pros and cons which I will spell out below.
The 2.8D PROs as I see them are: superior passing power at low rpm which is where I like to drive, longer intervals between fueling fill ups, doesn’t lose power at altitude due to turbocharging (nice for my 2x/ year ski trips), and tremendous modification potential (favorite past time of mine), better at towing (I hope to get a boat but it’s not happening soon), and finally diesels are just cool to drive.
The 2.8D CONs as I see them are: a long time to get payback in FE (not a big concern for me), and the potential unreliability of the emissions equipment long term. Also the diesel equipped vehicle can often weigh more slightly effecting overall handling. And the big con for me personally, not available until MY 2016.
The 3.6L PROs are primarily: availability sooner rather than later, and more top end acceleration by far w/ another 100hp (stock anyways). Mods will be available being a Camaro engine (bolt-ons is all I would do to a gasser) but being naturally aspirated they will be limited in % increases.
3.6L Cons would primarily be, well it just doesn’t feel like a premium engine to me. It really doesn’t. I feel the torque is a little low for this application and I also don’t love the 4 valve heads and complexity (no DOD!) and the type of power they deliver for a 4x4 truck. I’m really not happy w/ the engine choice GM made on paper.
So after my long drawn out explanation, are any of you guys going through the same decision making process as I am? What are your conclusions? I’d love to hear them.
Thanks for reading the novel.
